most of them are veterans of jihad in south asia, kashmir, pakistan, indonesia. some of the commanders are actually foreigners. >> you have no of the magnitude or size of this problem? >> the size of al shabaab shifts. you have the core group then you have the militias which switch allegiance very quickly depending on circumstances and happenstance. the number that most analysts play around with, and this is only a guess, and that is probably in the low thousands, maybe upwards of five. at times you can capture the loyalty of certain clans or sub- clans. each has its own armed force which can be purchased. what other times you can purchase entire units even from the transitional government forces. >> congressman, if i could add, i have done research on the issue of particularly the foreign element in al shabaab and the strength of the organization. no one knows other than al shabaab how many armed followers they have in the country, but the last estimates were 4000, going up to 6000 or 7000 armed persons at any given time in the country. the more interesting part